Nails/Of The Rings collection duped?

I had refrained from speculating on this till now but it seems increasingly likely that the entire collection formerly owned by Nails Warstein has been duped. Lot of unique items belonging to that collection (new owner: Of The Rings @ Great Lakes) are surfacing in multiple copies. If true, then it is a huge blow considering this collection is the largest of its type in Ultima Online.

A word on recent banning.

So, Mythic GM team has finally gone big time against the cheaters. As most of you probably have heard by now that this past Friday (August 1st) they banned (yet to be) undisclosed number of accounts for duping or being in possession of duped items.

I have to applaud this but at the same time I worry about how useful these actions really were. A lot can be said about this matter and believe me, I do have a lot to say. However, I will only ask one question at this time:

Why are there so many people who were banned on only one of their multiple accounts? Copying and pasting someone else's post from U.Hall:

If you folks at EA Mythic just banned a lot of accounts for duping, WHY have you NOT banned ALL of their accounts? There are a number of people on this board complaining about being banned, but still have other accounts to log in with -- and at least two have said they have the same CC info across accounts.

This makes little sense to me too. Maybe someone else can point out a logical reason for this? (One theory is that they are not done with the bans but I am not sure why they would take a staggered approach). To me it is beginning to seem like a case of people in charge of this at Mythic seriously losing the plot. I question how effective they were at taking action against professional cheaters if they missed accounts of "casual cheaters." The fact is that I have seen two known fencers/dupers restocking their vendors on Sunday with more dupes. Then there is this lovely thread on U.Hall where someone is stocking hundreds of barbed kits as recently as yesterday.

Maybe I am completely wrong about this. I HOPE I am completely wrong about this. However, with the kind of communication coming from Mythic can you blame me or other players? The last time there was a major banning, Wilki (the then community coordinator) was right there with us giving us all sorts of information (number of accounts banned, amount of gold deleted, etc.) - It was a major success against cheaters and also in terms of marketing as the news made it to major tech and gaming blogs. Compare it to this time when players were left with over 2 days before they were even told anything. I am not trying to blame any one person as there is no way for me to know what really went on behind the scenes but from a player's perspective the coordination is seriously lacking this time around and somewhere along the lines the ball was dropped.

Will Jeremy/Mythic communicate about this matter to the rest of us who are left scratching our heads?

GM inaction against dupers is mind-blowing!

It has been months, if not longer, since people have been blatantly duping. I know many people have sent quite a few emails to Jeremy with very useful information. It should be possible for the GM's to isolate the people who are responsible for duping/fencing and take action against them by now.

Most of us were probably expecting this to happen before character transfers were opened up again. However, as far as I know, nothing has happened. I am struggling to rationalize this. Maybe they are trying to get to the "big" guys? But going by the past precedents, I doubt that to be the case.

A good friend of mine, named SuzyQ, has been so frustrated with the entire thing that he simply refuses to log in anymore. I suspect this to be the case with few others.

I am guessing they have some constraints that I cannot comprehend being not in their shoes. Yet, it is so hard to not get frustrated. I think the best way for me to avoid frustration is to set a personal deadline (not to be confused with an ultimatum). So, here it is: I will simply quit logging into the game if there is no action forthcoming in the next 14 days. No temper tantrums, no long whiney posts, and definitely no good-byes.

Two more weeks of watching cheaters destroy the game I enjoyed playing for so many years is all I can take. I can fully appreciate the various obstacles EA has to pass through to deal with the ever-adopting cheaters and how hard it probably is to balance resources. But, I personally as just another normal player cannot take more than two additional weeks.

And no, you may not have my stuff!

Case Against Treyster

Couple of weeks ago, Nails Warstein approached me saying Treyster (Alec Moontree) was offering to dupe the entire collection owned by Oldsmobile which is for sale on Stratics. This did not come as much of a surprise to me as Treyster had been caught working with dupers in the past. For example, during the vine cord drama (more details about this further down - including the apology Treyster wrote) but it was still very disappointing as I had been convinced that he had changed and learned his lesson with the vc deletions.

So, I asked Nails for his icq logs but instead he proposed to give me his icq details so that I can log in myself and talk with Treyster pretending to be Nails. What happened next was quite revealing and I am going to post most of the conversation here (part of the end of the conversation is not posted as it implicates another person and I need to look into it further.)

Following is the log - Remember Nails Warstein in this conversation is actually me using his icq with his permission. I pretended that Nails and Oldsmobile (doug) were interested in his offer to dupe Oldsmobile's collection to get more details:

1. [04:36] Nails Warstein: So, how will it work for doug
   
2. [04:36] Treyster: Once I figure out if it still works or not, he can just bag it all up, wait 3-5 days and ill give him either double or triple back hehe
3. [04:37] Nails Warstein: How many do you keep? How many does the guy keep? Who gets to sell first?
4. [04:38] Treyster: I'll keep one of each, guy keeps one of each, and doug should get 2-3 of each back...more than likely 2 back, ill have to ask.
5. 
   
6. and its dougs stuff so he gets to sell first
7. [04:39] Treyster: and he'll sell us the stuff for insanely cheap afterwards so its np
8. [04:39] Nails Warstein: What if it all ends up on dupe list on rare forums?
9. [04:39] Nails Warstein: I am afraid doug doesnt get much out of it
10. [04:40] Treyster: Tomas isnt guna be updating that....hes a fat lazy faggot, pardon my lan but i just dont like him cuz he doesnt like me and i cant even view stratics now thx to him (too bad rest was not as amusing)
    
11. [04:40] Treyster: none of us do really....he'd be getting more than i ususaly do tbh
12. [04:41] Treyster: we get our item + 1-2 back....he'll be getting his items + 2-3 back hopefully
13. [04:41] Nails Warstein: Is it safe? what about EA?
14. [04:41] Treyster: and after hes given us the free ones we'll have to pay for the items after that, but they'll be insanely cheap....like $10 for most robes n such
15. [04:41] Treyster: hell no its not safe lol....this is duping bro, the most illegal thing you can do in this game hehe (good to know that he is fully aware of his actions. No temporary insanity plea for him.)
    
16. [04:42] Nails Warstein: Will this guy give items back
17. [04:42] Treyster: but we've been doing it for months now with np.....can never tell when EA will do the ban hammer tho =/
18. [04:42] Treyster: ive yet to have a problem....guy is really nice, not greedy by any means at all
    
19. [04:43] Treyster: he gave me like 3b in runics and tokens for free lol just to show that he was trustworthy =/
    
20. [04:43] Nails Warstein: is there any precautions doug and/or I can take while doing this?
21. [04:43] Nails Warstein: wow 3B in runics?
    
22. [04:44] Treyster: not really, no....I mean ive given him some pretty valuble stuff with np....but yea its very risky ya know I mean you could give him the items then tom EA decide to ban dupers and lose it all =/
23. [04:45] Treyster: it does have its risks.....but the benifits out weigh them IMO hehe
    

While Treyster, as he states on line 17, was busy duping for months he was also busy trying to convince me that he does not indulge in fencing anymore. He wanted me to let him be part of the Rare Council and he even wrote this "apology." This apology came after me and Ryna confronted him over icq about the dozens of vine cords he was selling:

Treyster: I would like to take the time to Sincerely appologize to everyone of the rares community. Some of you may or may not knowthat recently I participated in the so called fencing of certain event items. It was a horrible decicion on my part and we all make mistakes, I learned my leason in a very hard way. Vine Cords sandles were deleted and I lost a many pair, it was a huge blow to my bank account and a slap back to reality to me. Since the deletion of the VC's I have yet to partake in any "Illegal" activity in the wonderful game of UO. From this "Fencing" of rares ive made quite a few enemies, got banned from stratics, and lost several very good friends. This "Mistake" I made has cost me alot and I have more than learned my leason, it was a very very harsh leason to be learned but what can we do from mistakes we make? Learn from them and move on. I do not expect everyone to forgive me for the things I've done I can only hope that you will all find it in your hearts to do so, I'm still the nice guy you've all known for years, and I'm still the honest and trustworthy Dealer and Collector, nothing has changed in that aspect. I made a huge mistake and I've learned from it and moved on, I belive that I have been Punished enough. I'm honestly and Truely sorry for what I've done, and im now actively trying to help the rares community in any way that I can.

I hope you will all forgive me for what ive done, Again I'm truely sorry to you all.

And in conclusion, just so you all know, Any "Shady" item that I sold months ago was very well known by the buyer to be "Shady". They all knew that the items they were buying were dupes, and they all knew the risks before buying. very very few ppl ever cared, and I only had 2 ppl complain when VC's were removed, They were not reimbursed because all trading in UO is buyer beware and they were all well aware of what they were buying.

From this appology I do not wish to be Flamed as I can not defend my self. I am currently not allowed to post on this great site. If anyone has anything to say to or about me at all please feel free to contact me at 121951026. I see lots of ppl talking behind my back, that is probably the most childish thing anyone could do, if you have something to say please say it to my face (virtual face hehe) I will not be offended.

Thank you all for your time and again I really am truely sorry.

In Summary,

Few of us strongly suspected Treyster for quite some time already when Nails contacted me out of the blue. I knew he (Treyster) was still fencing but I did not realize the extent of it till I had this chat with him.

If there is anything I can take away from this situation then it is that Treyster is a liar and anything he says can never be trusted. He is the type of a person who thinks that he can talk anyone into believing his bullshit. I am sure he will put a spin on this "Tomas hates me and is out to get me," "I was just lying to Nails," etc.

However, only you can decide for yourself. If you choose to believe that I am lying then more power to you. I really cannot be bothered about it. If I could muster up even the slightest hope that Treyster could change for the better, I would have done things differently. Alas, I know what Treyster is and I have shared that information with everyone else at the risk of my own account and facing fancied-up attacks on my integrity. Now, my work is done on this matter! You can do whatever the hell you want with this information (except post about it on stratics :P). I am not here to win a popularity contest and in the future, if an opportunity presents itself, I will not hesitate to expose others even if it shakes up someone's resolve to live in denial. I will be the first one to admit to having made mistakes in the past partly because I was not willing to admit to the existence of dupers or duping. This is the single biggest reason why non-collectors often dislike rare collectors; We are so often willing to ignore the ugly.

One final thing though: Please do think with your head. Just because someone with a lot of rares and/or high post count (or moderator status) says something does not make it true. You are your best friend and you have to think for yourself. Only way to look past all the bullshit.

(Small update on duping)

I would like to quickly share this information with everyone without going into details. Treyster aka Alec Moontree is a duper. He does not dupe items himself but he has been instrumental in supplying rares to dupers. He has been exploiting his connections in the rare community to not only sell duped items but to also acquire new items to be duped.

I realize that I am not providing great amount of details (at this time) and that this might be hard for some of you to believe but it is 100% supported by evidence. I will present the evidence here once I get the go ahead from the people who helped me acquire it.

Some of you might have already been aware of this but there are still quite a few people who trust him. Please spread the word.

Treyster's icq to me:

[01:15] Treyster: ill be putting all my money and effort into having your shit hacked now....you know I can have it done, and I will now....
[01:32] Treyster: give me that atleast.....you have alot of ppl wondering......why are you singling ME out....from all the ppl you could have?
[01:33] Treyster: Parkay, Kyros, hollywood shono (soulweaver), tox.....tons and tons of other ppl.....but you choose me? (thanks for giving more names trey)
[02:34] Treyster: what are you trying to accomplish by doing this any ways? I mean you really think its guna stop ppl from buying from me?
[02:35] Treyster: Look at DVI's past Polls 90% of the ppl dont give a shit lol
(Note: I have only posted the most interesting ICQ msgs as I get them. In all fairness, there are indeed quite a few msgs where he denies the charge.)

Treyster has his vendors at Genesis Mall on Atlantic Luna.

Know your dupe fencer

People who tend to sell duped items use various arguments to rationalize their actions and also to allay the fears of potential buyers regarding their goods. The surprising thing is how easy it is to buy into this line of thinking. I have seen many people, who should know better, fall for it. Here I would like to point out some of these arguments,

1) "Everything is duped. Hence, there is no reason to talk about dupes."

This is my all-time favorite one. It is quite a brilliant argument whose sole purpose is to act as a red herring. Lets break it down! The first part of the sentence: "Everything is duped," is in fact a huge (and wrongful) assumption which relies on the cynicism of the target audience to pass it as a fact.

The truth is that a large percentage of event items have never been duped. The reason you never see them for sale is... well... because they are rare! Rare items are not meant to be for sale every other week. Most people hang on to them for months, if not years, effectively taking them out of the market. Something popping up for sale too often is usually the first sign that all might not be well.

The second part of the sentence: "Hence, there is no reason to talk about dupes," supplies the motivation for the preceding lie. The biggest concern a duper has is that everyone will find out that the item he is pawning off as a rare is not really all that rare after all. This will always lower the value of the item in question, even PvP rares (although they tend to not fall as fast). As such, they are not proponents of having information available to everyone. By making everyone think that "everything is duped" and calling on to the ever present cynical part in all of us.. "whats the point" ... they effectively discourage candid discussions about duping and making information about duped items easily available.

So to make the record clear: No, everything is not duped and there are plenty of reasons to talk about duped items.

2) "There is no way to prove xyz is duped."

This is often used for items for which we do not have clear information regarding its initial count or which were given in large enough count making it very hard to get current inventory. However, I reject the notion that you need to prove beyond doubt that an item has been duped. This goes back to what I touched earlier: information control. If veteran collectors are staying away from certain items because they believe them to have been duped then I have no problem letting this knowledge be available to the general audience! For certain, you do not want to be paranoid and wrongfully label an item as duped but the fact of the matter is that most of the experienced collectors tend to know what they are talking about. They are not known for their knee-jerk reactions and if a consensus is reached then it is an extremely high chance that they are correct. So, it is an acceptable risk of being wrong on a rare occasion if it means you can prevent scores of people from wasting their gold. The former situation can be fixed, latter cannot be.

So to make the record clear: Yes, it might be impossible to prove beyond any doubt that a certain item is duped. However, it is not impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

3) "This is a video game. People should stop talking about morals and just play the game."

This is another one of my favorite one. The goal again is to discourage people from spreading information about duped items. The idea is to create an image of this cool person who is above petty pixel arguments and ask others to be like him. Why talk about pixel dupes when you could just buy them and enjoy the game? What you should always keep in mind is that, unlike most of you, this person relies on pixel scamming to earn their living. There is nothing cool about it.

So to make the record clear: Yes, it is a video game. We do not need to be the best by buying your illegal items. It is just a video game.

4) "Everyone owns dupes. Everyone sells dupes."

This is usually their last resort argument. When everything else fails, why not create a straw-man? It is better known as an ad hominem argument, because it focuses on the opposite person and not their positions. The goal of this argument, much like the others, is to discourage people from spreading information. It is pointless, everyone does it! You should too!!

Yes, I think a lot of people have owned duped items and also, often knowingly, sold them. However, I think there is a big difference between introducing duped items in the economy and one time trading of an item that is already part of the market, especially when you make sure the buyer is well-aware of its status. And guess what? EA Games, the final word on all things UO, agrees with me. They have made a clear distinction in the past between normal players and being a front for illegal items.

So to make the record clear: Everyone might have sold a duped item here and there. But not everyone makes it their business to mislead people into spending their gold or real life money into buying things that are obtained illegally.

Next time you see your favorite duped items fencer make any of the above arguments, take a deep breath and crack a smile. You can see right through it :)